Cafe Hayek - Latest Comments in The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

Juan C Vera — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Simply brilliant. Very good Professor Boudreax...

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

S Andrews — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

I would suggest "In Defense of Global Capitalism" by Johan Norberg.

That's asking for too much. You should start with first grade language and math.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

MWG — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

"Which country is deregulating more and more and doing better and better. All you can do is point to the isolated city-states of Singapore and China."

-muirdog

You've been given the list of countries and the numbers on growth time and time again. The commenters on this blog share an understanding of economics far greater than that of yours and choose to discuss different issues.

If you want to know why economies with limited regulation grow faster and see higher standards of living there are numerous books that could offer you a BASIC understanding of economics. I would suggest "In Defense of Global Capitalism" by Johan Norberg. It's very basic and offers a lot of data.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

S Andrews — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

You're such an idiot...

Understatement of the millenium.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

MWG — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

"We can also look to other country's contemporaneously. Iceland, Argentina, Britain and Ireland all embraced deregulatory policies and are suffering the consequences... "

-muirdog

Are you serious? Argentina? Their leader is a self avowed socialist. She traded their debt to the IMF to Chavez so she wouldn't be "forced" to adopt market policies. Ireland is MUCH better off as a result of their embrace of free markets, EVEN in light of the current economic situation.

You're such an idiot...

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

Greg Ransom — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

"Evolution" seems to have given hacks like Kristof a psychology which tells them to produce BS, pseudo-science & fear of the sort which gives them more power and money.

"Evolution" seems so have given the same psychology to Al Gore.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

LowcountryJoe — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

[/facepalm]

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

S Andrews — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

SHOW ME SOME FRICKING EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION.

You have the gall to come here day after day and post comments without civility, You have the gall to shout @ every one. You have the gall to call this a pathetic blog of cry babies. Don't you have any shame you pathetic loser?

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

S Andrews — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

So how to tell who is right? Simply look at history. The 2 periods where regulations where dramatically reduced, the 20's and the present period both resulted in crashes.

You detestable excuse for a man, you couldn't resist the temptation to visit this "Pathetic" blog of "cry babies", Could you? You hypocrite?

What were these dramatic deregulation were introduced recently, you mean Sarbanes-Oxley? Federal law book reduced by how many pages? It's democracy @ work, you don't like it - tough luck! Oh your favorite Glass-Steagall - could you cite equivalent laws in France, Germany or your favorite banking system in Canada?

What were the deregulations in 1920s?

Fastest economic growth ever in history happened in the 1800s, especially in the latter half. It is a fact!

Worst ever crisis in history of the U.S happened on the watch of the "Great Engineer" who wanted to engineer the american economy, and the the one ( during his campaign )who criticized him for being an activist president. It happened after the progressives cartelized the banking system under the supervision of the central authority of the Federal reserve. It is a fact. Unemployment has been much higher than this throughout the 1930s, 1946-1947, 1958, and many times during the 70s and 80s. No business cycles were never outlawed ever in history you jerk.

SHOW ME SOME FRICKING EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION.

If you don't like the evidence, then get lost. Why are you visiting the cry babies @ this blog. What's your pupose? Do you heckle your patients in the hospital where you work, you idiot?

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

muirgeo — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Muirgeo self contradictions...

Posted by: S Andrews

There's no contradiction.

The libertarian argues that markets succeed in spite of regulation. The other side argues that good regulation is required for successful markets.

So how to tell who is right? Simply look at history. The 2 periods where regulations where dramatically reduced, the 20's and the present period both resulted in crashes.

We can also look to other country's contemporaneously. Iceland, Argentina, Britain and Ireland all embraced deregulatory policies and are suffering the consequences while France, Germany, Scandinavia and Canada are doing much better.

That's the facts. They fit with my claims while they contradict the libertarians.

If you were right markets would do better and better with less and less regulation. They often do for a bit... then the bubble burst. SHOW ME SOME FRICKING EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION. Which country is deregulating more and more and doing better and better. All you can do is point to the isolated city-states of Singapore and China. Not too impressive.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

Martin Brock — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Do you understand that this sort of reasoning makes even a real scenario of catastrophic warming unrecognizable or nothing to worry about?

No. If you have evidence of a real scenario of catastrophic warming, I'm happy to discuss it with you. Do you have it or not? That's a direct question. I'd like a direct answer.

In other worlds if the world was on the verge of a state change of climate what WOULD the evidence for such look like at this point?

You tell me. I'm not the one asking for trillions of dollars to save the world from catastrophe. The burden of proving the necessity of spending a trillion dollars rests on advocates of the expenditure. Doesn't it?

I'm not asking for evidence of any degree of warming, and I'm not asking for evidence of any likely human influence. Any human influenced warming does not warrant a multi-trillion dollar cost.

One prior expert said something to the effect... to paraphrase... "climate is a sleeping beast and we are poking it with a stick."

That's just meaningless babble. You don't have evidence of catastrophe or looming catastrophe. You have speculation based on extremely questionable modeling of a highly chaotic, dynamic system, and you want to spend trillions of dollars, so you talk about the one while arguing for the other.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

John Dewey — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

S Andrews: "how likely is it that you will employ a steadfastly principled libertarian ... as the CEO of the corporation?"

You're absolutely correct. A CEO may truly believe in libertarian principles. But he is bound by contract and by law to act in the best interests of the shareholders. If the interests of the shareholders are best served by lobbying government for favors, that's what the CEO is required to do.

The culprit is not the CEO, but rather the politician. The politician is supposed to represent the interests of his constituents. When the politician pursues power and exchanges favors for campaign contributions, he is not usually representing the interests of the voters who elected him.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

S Andrews — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

If you were the majority stake holder in a fortune 500 company, how likely is it that you will employ a steadfastly principled libertarian, who would never lobby the government, or bribe officials, or wouldn't stop criticizing politicians and bureaucrats, as the CEO of the corporation?

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

S Andrews — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Muirgeo self contradictions...

Lie # 1

The failure to act or to have good regulations governing our financial system has resulted in its collapse. The result has dramatically effected the lives of individuals and pulled down our economy/ the worlds economy.

Now view it in the light of

Lie # 2

There's always been regulation and the big picture is that our economy/the modern economy/ is the most efficient ever.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

S Andrews — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Do you ever wonder why wealthy elites like George Soros, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet ( son of a principled libertarian congressman ), tend to be statists? Have you ever met a libertarian billionaire? I am sure if you look really hard you will find one, but based on the rhetoric of the progressive fools, you would think that every one of them is a libertarian.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

John Dewey — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

daniel kuehn: "it's not the misunderstanding of the economic costs of the legislation that is driving the argument. For the most part, people understand and agree about those costs."

Do you think so? Not sure who you mean by "people". Many "greenies" I've talked with have no understanding of economic growth. No way do they understand inefficent resource allocation inherent in government imposed regulations such as cap and trade.

daniel kuehn: "there is huge disagreement on is the economic costs of climate change."

I agree with that part.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

muirgeo — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

It's not idiocy, it's a brilliant power grab.

Posted by: John

You think it's the environmentalist and the politicians who are grabbing power. I think it's the fossil fuel industry who stands to earn trillions more in profits and the power that comes with it by maintaining the status quo . These men have unimaginable wealth and they sit behind the curtain and pull the levers that control not only your life but through the media they control your mind. They've done a good job of convincing people like yourself that you have some sort of market choice when you go to buy an internal combustion machine and fill it with gasoline. They own you, they control you and they even convinced you to defend them a be one of their minions. Your nothing more then an ork for Mordar. THAT'S a perfect power grab.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

John Dewey — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Martin Brock,

I agree completely with your post that begins:

"The assertion that "science counsels that we should be" very fearful of AGW is false."

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

S Andrews — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Muirgeo,

You disgusting lunatic. You couldn't stay away from the "pathetic" blog of cry babies. Could you, you lying hypocrite?

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

muirgeo — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

I guess you had to witness it for yourself.

As I've explained before, all, ALL governments manifest as oligarchies. Even "democracies" manifest this way.

How many ordinary people do you know who have the time and resources to mount viable campaigns against the political class?

Right.

Posted by: Sam Grove

I still have hope. A lot of it lies with this internet and the newer medias. But even these are subject to to control by the rulers as in China and Iran. The idea of democracy is for peaceful change but if it fails what else is their but revolt? I seriously fear for possible societal collapse in the near future. To the point that as much as I dislike guns I'm stocking up.

As much as you may be right on thee problem I still don't see you with any realistic solutions. Do you have answers for dealing with living under the rule of multi-national corporations? I see little hope when I see lemmings claiming to be pro-liberty but stating for instance they buy gasoline because they are making "market decisions" and not recognizing their complete dependency on "The Man".

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

Martin Brock — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

The latest I've heard on the Cap and Trade bill is that it is friendly to Wall Street and even the fossil fuel industry.

There's a shocker.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

Martin Brock — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

The failure to act or to have good regulations governing our financial system has resulted in its collapse. The result has dramatically effected the lives of individuals and pulled down our economy/ the worlds economy.

That's an argument FOR acting on possible threats from man made climate change as opposed to doing nothing.

No. Even if you're right about "failure to regulate" causing a financial collapse, this failure tells us nothing about man made climate change or any case for doing anything about it. The two could hardly be less related. What on Earth are you talking about?

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

Martin Brock — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

The assertion that "science counsels that we should be" very fearful of AGW is false. No scientific consensus of this sort exists.

Daniel occasionally acknowledges the far less foreboding consensus that does exist, i.e. 1) fossil fuel burning was largely responsible for a substantial rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration in the 20th century and 2) this rise seems a likely cause of a portion, possibly most, of a roughly one-half deg C increase in atmospheric temperature during the latter half of the 20th century.

That's it. The Global Warming hysteria is not scientific at all. No credible, scientific case exists for a massive, global regime spending trillions of dollars to try to change the global weather forecast. The hysteria just yet another excuse to impose incredible rents, and if AGW hysteria weren't the excuse, there'd be another.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

Eric Hammer — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

dK: the legislators don't care about the economic costs of climate regulation. They do not make their money in the open economy, they make their money selling influence and power. Since climate regulation is likely to increase their power and possible favors to sell, they are all for it, and the economic costs be damned.

The environmentalists don't care about the economic costs either, either because they can not fully grasp them (those that favor cap and trade certainly don't given the contradictions they spout) or do not care because they think human society should be reverted back to the time before electricity.

When was the last time you heard an environmentalist say something other than "We should do everything we can to stop climate change!" That is not the slogan of someone who is considering the various costs and benefits.

Re: The Psychology of Climate Change and Intervention

Alexei — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

The real issue with cap and trade isn't whether or not the AGW science is settled or not.

For sake of argument, let's say that AGW is true and happening.

Well great, cap and trade is basically what Kyoto called for, if I recall correctly. I haven't read any analysis of this latest venture, but as I recall for reading analysis of Kyoto, the projected warming was something like 2F over the next century. If everyone who signed on to the accords followed through with them (and no one has because it's impossible to do so with existing technology without stopping all economic growth....which might just be the point? I digress), then the warming would be something like 1.7F. I'm sure I've got the exact numbers wrong, since it's been a long time since I looked at them. But the basic point is true.

So we spend untold TRILLIONS of dollars in outlays and lost growth.......just so we can have a world that's still warming up, just a teensy tiny bit slower.

Well that's just great! Totally worth it! Sign me right up!

Sheesh

The sheer idiocy of this whole notion is incredible.