Cafe Hayek - Latest Comments in So You Want European-Style Health Care?

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

Jim H — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:21:44 -0000

Don't you mean New Hampshire?

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

Jim H — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:14:34 -0000

So true! I especially love the line saying that nobody ever asks for a bill to pass that would restrict thyself from doing something. Brilliant.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

Rollie — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 04:16:48 -0000

Why is it that when collectivism is adopted in an attempt to "fix" something, it makes things worse, and more collectivism is proposed to fix the consequences of the initial failure of that collectivism?

Something must exist in reality before it can possibly spread. Once that something exists in the market, competition leads to innovation, which causes production costs to fall (outside of monetary inflation). If costs fall enough, that good or service can be accessed by anyone.

If production costs are high at a particular point in time, this does not mean they will remain high indefinitely. How does a planner determine if the cost of something is ideal today rather than yesterday, or if it "must" be arbitrarily "controlled"? If a good or service can be supplied cost-effectively at a price that meets consumer wants and needs, it would already be doing this in the market.

European health care "works" in some countries despite government, not because of it. Government intervention can only distort the market. As a result of such distortions, consumers act in ways that do not reflect reality, thus creating additional problems/costs which are typically addressed in the form of more intervention/collectivism. And repeat...

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

fullyinsuredguy14 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 03:19:08 -0000

Sure it may be six months before they get to see a doctor.. but at least they get seen! And what about all those who get SO SICK they are finally wheeled into the hospital emergency room without insurance.. and we all end up paying for a much bigger bill in the end? And what about all the WORKING people in this country who are self-employed, temporarily employed or part time employed who can't see a doctor? And what about all those who are walking around sick coughing on the salad bars and produce sections of supermarkets because they can't afford to see a doctor... and they end up infecting so many more of the healthy ones? This all puts a huge bill on the economy.. which other countries realize... but America can't quite understand. THINK America!!

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

Rollie — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 02:45:55 -0000

"all the liberal states will look like Canada". By this do you mean, whenever s#*! hits the fan, everyone from the liberal states will run to the libertarian ones begging for mercy?

"right wing nut cakes prone to war"? I don't know if you noticed, but Democrats were responsible for getting us into every war over the last century up until the Gulf War. Democrats are warmongers too. And just because some hick family that can't communicate to save their lives was somehow successful enough to obtain the votes to get elected, then promptly abandoned the few remaining "principles" of their party, doesn't mean "right wing nut cakes" are "prone to war".

I would also like to address one of your previous statements, "How would strict libertarian policy not lead to all the property being owned by a small minority?" Considering this logic (if you want to call it that), it seems a phenomenon such as this would have already occurred under our current system. Property values in Detroit are averaging $9,000, yet I don't see evidence of any impending fiefdoms. The rich are a-holes for providing people with employment and reducing the price of consumer goods. However, I would much prefer a government that prints it's own money, spends it while it's still worth something, and still can't seem to manage things in an efficient or cost-effective manner. Right.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

brotio — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:31:30 -0000

I'm all for liberty.

Your typing got ahead of your brain (not hard for you to do). What you meant to write was, I'm all for as much liberty the State decides I need.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

ArrowSmith — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:12:08 -0000

Not just government, but thuggish criminals also share that monopoly on violence. Terrorizing the rest of us.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

wholesale kids clothing — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:10:33 -0000

There have always been politicians. Government is an organization with the monopoly on violence, and politicians are the people who control those who "are allowed" to inflict violence on others.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

JohnK — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:30:36 -0000

If you want them to go away, ignore them. If their posts garner no reply, they will get bored and go away. They post something designed to gain a reaction, then you play into their game by repeating the same arguments over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

JohnK — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:25:53 -0000

Should have been in reply to the guy who is a shining example of the fact that someone can graduate at the bottom of their class and still manage to practice medicine.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

Sam Grove — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:39:56 -0000

You say that because you don't know what you are talking about.

The history of humanity is rife with conflict over political control of territory. And what government is all about is the administration of conquered territory. All governments, monarchies and democracies, are oligarchies subsisting on the productivity of the serfs.

Serfdom is here.

That people get to vote over who the actual administrators are leaves them no less administered than any herd of sheep.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

ArrowSmith — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:27:34 -0000

muirdog - the only "conformity" we libertarians require is "don't tread on me".

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

Proud progressive — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:26:49 -0000

Libertariansm doesn't prevent "control over a defined geographic region", it promotes it.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

Proud progressive — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:24:12 -0000

Yes but true Libertarianism requires strict conformity.. you are apparently a little out of line.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

Sam Grove — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:32:31 -0000

I understand that, but were you intending to reply to me or muirgeo?

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

LowcountryJoe — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:10:57 -0000

He also had a qualifier. I even responded to your quoting of Hayek in order to get you to think and ask some tough questions of you. You dodged my reply, though; that didn't suprise me. But now that you're back spouting this, try explaining how Hayek advocated for public insurance provisions for those with adequate means to make their own provisions. Then, explain how we don't already have public health 'insurance' for those without adequate provisions. Can you do it? Will you attempt the failure by trying to explain it? Will you concede that you're wrong about what Hayek wrote/said and applied things way too liberally. Or, will you do what you do best...duck, duck, goose step?

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

JohnK — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:37:32 -0000

There have always been politicians. Government is an organization with the monopoly on violence, and politicians are the people who control those who "are allowed" to inflict violence on others.
Even Somalia has a government, it's just spread out among tribes and gangs, each of which have the monopoly on violence in the area that they control. And those that control those tribes and gangs are politicians.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

Laura — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:52:50 -0000

Hi,

I am an outreach coordinator for the health videos website.

I wanted to add to the discussion by offering up some videos for those of you looking for more information on health care reform. We have three topics pages about health care, one is specifically about policy, one is about the current reform efforts and finally, one features videos discussing the politics of it all.

http://www.icyou.com/topics...

Check out these videos for answers to your questions, and check back daily for updates and new information!

Thanks,
Laura

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

olddoc — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:52:45 -0000

If this is illustrative for the strength of arguments European conservative think tanks manage to put out there, this video just eased most of my worries: the continued existence of our European health care benefits have little to fear. Her arguments are unfounded sound bites about 'long waiting lines' (I never noticed them, ever), 'bureaucrats deciding what is covered and what is not' (private companies have bureaucrats who do just the same, in a more cynical fashion), and 'overutilization because it appears to be an all you can eat buffet' (no it isn't... coverage is only 100% in the U.K., not in other countries where you still pay a % out of pocket, cutting down on overconsumption). Thanks for the video.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

robert_o — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:33:56 -0000

But for most of recent history, those socialists were not in power in your country.
Of course they were. Don't look at what they say, look at what they do. Socialists have been in power since the 1910s.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

robert_o — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:28:53 -0000

muirgeo is afraid that people like himself would be in power. I think I like that conceit of his.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

ArrowSmith — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:58:15 -0000

How evil that they should work to get their daily bread! No instead the 2009 model of parasitism is MUCH MORE MORAL!!!!!

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

mcwop — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:01:03 -0000

REad this, you are wrong again:

http://www.city-journal.org...

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

MWG — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:52:09 -0000

"...while the libertarian states would look like Mexico..."

The fact that you think Mexico resembles even remotely a libertarian state shows just how simple minded you are.

Re: So You Want European-Style Health Care?

danielkuehn — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:52:11 -0000

First, you can't even manage your string of adjectives when we're here.

Second, don't lump me in with muirgeo. More often than not I find myself disagreeing with him. In fact, I probably agree with Don and Russ more than I agree with him.