Cafe Hayek - Latest Comments in "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Sam Grove — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 10:13:09 -0000

Progressives are elitist.

The use of the label "Progessive" is meant to imply that they are forward looking while others are not, hence their fondness for 'plans' which they wish to impose on the rest of us.

As they are possessed of beneficent intention, they excuse themselves, or more likely, blame others, if their plans cause problems for 'the people' they desire to rule over, as it is obvious to them that good intentions are sufficient to produce desired results.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Methinks — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 10:00:14 -0000

The one thing they could not plan for is change - Sam

Once that book arrives, you'll be in possession of a hysterical illustration of the fact that not only could the soviets not plan for change, but they couldn't even plan for the plan.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Sam Grove — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 09:42:30 -0000

As for the environmental movement, please read this article by the founder of Greenpeace.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Guest — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 09:41:52 -0000

Going to church... now that is Dark Ages! But please do keep attending as it keeps my church empty the way I like it.

Posted by: muirgeo

Now I understand why Methinks and Mesa get so fraustrated with you muirgeo. Your an elitist. How quaint.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Sam Grove — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 09:39:05 -0000

The trouble with a government plan for the future is that such plans are difficult to change when it is discovered that the plan did not take into account future events which render the plan obsolete.

The USSR had lots of plans. Lots and lots of plans.

The one thing they could not plan for is change.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

vidyohs — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 09:15:53 -0000

Per Kurowskiduck,

It is a fact that the Moon's garvitational pull visibly affects the oceans and therefore must be assumed to be also exerting influences on our atmosphere as well, both of which, oceans and atmosphere, are important compenents in determining our climate. Do you suppose that by landing on the moon those years ago man (evil USA) affected the pull and influence of the Moon on the Earth? Consider, it happened at just eh right moment to begin reversing the predicted Global Ice Age and they did leave footprints and tire tracks that could be acting on the Moon like dimples on a golf ball.

I bet that is what it is. Hey, it's as good a theory as what you can offer. Just should have never gone to the Moon. Maybe if we went back, hovered and erased the footprints and tire tracks we could smooth things out and keep going into our ice age.

"Has it not briefly passed through your head that you are just mirroring the hysteria on the other side? And, if you do not think that we indeed have a very serious environmental problem on our hands and that we need to solve it with lots and lots of rationality and even that might not prove to be enough, well then might I recommend perhaps summer school, Dear Mr. PhD?

Posted by: Per Kurowski | Mar 30, 2008 9:43:59 AM"

Has it not briefly passed through your head that Prof Boudreax is perfectly within context to mirror the loony left envriowhackos with his own hyperbole?

Has it briefly passed through your head that you display a massive huge humongus grand stupendous collossal ego to believe that man, measley ass piss ant man, can solve and fix the climate on any scale? Especially considering that we have only just begun to understand the relation of tides and ocean currents to natural climate changes, much less been able to command the tides and redirect the ocean currents.

Has it briefly passed through your head that the pissly measly amount of CO2 man produces pales alongside of what mother Earth produces herself, and again that ego I mentioned above moves you to tell us that we can fix it?

That's muirpidity on a level that is mind boggling.

Summer school? To paraphrase, "Per Kurowskeduck, heal thyself."

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Marcus — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:58:52 -0000

Muirgeo quoting Kurowski, "We are the first species to recognize we have to plan our future rather then head for the cliffs like some mindless lemmings.

If only he grokked what he writes.

Innovation, being a product of the human mind, is more bountiful the more human minds you have in a position to innovate.

Central planning limits innovation to only a few human minds which means much less innovation.

Central planners cannot know all the information they need to know in order to make the decisions that would be required of them. Nor do they have the processing power to process all the information if they had access to it, which they don't.

So no, it isn't free-marketers that are simple minded.

There are real market solutions to environmental issues yet left-wing environmentalists would rather focus on mindless symbolism such as 'Earth-hour'.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Mesa Econoguy — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:58:11 -0000

No worries, Methinks.

And as a religion, AGW has its own Torquemada: Al Gore. James Hansen and Michael Mann are equally insidious.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Methinks — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:44:50 -0000

Sorry for the open tag. how embarrassing.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Mesa Econoguy — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:37:47 -0000

[closing italics tag]

Environmentalism is the new religion.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Mesa Econoguy — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:36:45 -0000

So it turns out Phoenix did observe this ridiculous exercise, mostly downtown (where nobody lives).

The rotating restaurant at the top of the Hyatt flipped their lights off and had diners enjoy a candlelit dinner….so they could enjoy the city lights.

That’s how stupid this exercise was.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Methinks — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:27:30 -0000

I didn't specifically respect the Earth hour.... - Muirpid

What! You didn't turn off life support machines and the incubators in the NICU for an hour? Was that planned hypocrisy?

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

muirgeo — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 06:55:54 -0000

Zeitgeist on religion. This is great stuff. Can start right at the 3 minute mark to get to the best part. But the whole portion of Zeitgeist on religion is great. It's fun to help people of religion realize that their religion is simply something some one made up using an adaptation of Paganism simply to control them.

Have fun at Church today all especially those of you who think your belief is some how superior to what people do when they honor Earth Hour.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

muirgeo — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 06:46:03 -0000

“Return humankind to the dark ages” “Gee what a splendidly witty phrase!” “Got to post it!”

Per Kurowski

That's right Per, environmentalism is exactly the opposite of a Dark Ages mentality. It's about enlightenment.

We are the first species to recognize we have to plan our future rather then head for the cliffs like some mindless lemmings.

Poor planning is why we've spent trillions of dollars and grown a dependency on middle eastern oil. These guys sit and drink clean water and clean air completely oblivious that it was a result of good planning countering an externality the market would not correct for.

They hate the idea of a need to plan because in their simple minded BLACK an White world that goes against everything they stand for incapable of seeing shades of grey. And it's to the point were they are capable of completely denying scientific data and evidence to preserve and protect an ideology based on weak simple-minded and rigid thinking.

I didn't specifically respect the Earth hour but any one who thinks the idea of doing this one a year is pointless must also believe that church goers who do the same once a week praying to some god they believe is watching them from the clouds is even more ridiculous.

I love church. For like this morning while they are all doing their weekly equivalent of Earth hour... I'll be out hiking in nature looking at the incredible flower display with my wife being enlightened and communing with nature our true creator.

Going to church... now that is Dark Ages! But please do keep attending as it keeps my church empty the way I like it.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Josh Nankivel — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 06:43:16 -0000

How exactly does conservation conflict with free market economic goals? All of these ad hominem attacks by Don and the comments reveal a dogmatic view and lack of a real argument. I wouldn't have even thought that conservation and dealing with our resources wisely would be counter to economic goals.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Methinks — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 06:28:43 -0000

Shucks, mnm & Mes...you make me blush...right back atcha.

That is a broad generalization. Many environmentalists prefer to use persuasion. - John Dewey

Yes, it is a broad generalization, John. But I spout off enough on this blog and sometimes I just have to pick a stopping point. I know a few environmentalists personally and their goal is to make "environmentally friendly" alternatives more economic so that people will choose them rather than be forced to buy in. The groups they associate themselves with are of a similar mindset. But they aren't aggressive and don't seek to pass legislation or pull idiotic stunts and the enviro-terrorists and Algore are and do. They are after all, the ones who came up with the "bright" idea of forcing people to recycle paper which creates a bigger environmental hazard than making paper from scratch. It seems that half of what they do - including pushing organic farming (which requires more land and more deforestation than "conventional" methods) - is actually detrimental to the environment.

Socialism is not the only reason to want a clean environment. I don't want to wade through trash and breathe crud every day.

Methinks, if plastic bags are cheaper than biodegradable paper ones, would you prefer the former?

PLASTIC BAGS? Who the hell uses plastic bags anymore? I've been using the same canvas bags for 10 years. Plus, you don't have to wonder what to do with that giant growing ball of plastic grocery bags which in Manhattan turn into nasty, filthy kites on windy days. Canvas. Really, people, it'll change your life!

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Chris — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 06:05:08 -0000

Insane.

If anything, we'll be using far more electricity in the future than we do now. With oil prices where they are, plug-in cars will become increasingly more practical, and that will require a lot of new power production.

The environmentalists would be better off pushing for French-style nuclear reactors and reprocessing plants than this bizarre head-in-the-sand attitude.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

John Dewey — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 05:50:43 -0000

methinks: "Since the environmentalists wish to impose their agenda on the unwilling"

That is a broad generalization. Many environmentalists prefer to use persuasion.

Don't think for a moment that environmentalists are the only group who seek the power of government in the "green" versus profits confrontation. Corporations and business owners have bribed politicians in their efforts to continue fouling the earth.

I'm not sure how libertarians feel about air and water pollution. But how can the collective voice of the people - acting through government - not be involved in preventing uncaring polluters from destroying our air and water?

Methinks, if plastic bags are cheaper than biodegradable paper ones, would you prefer the former?

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Per Kurowski — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 05:43:59 -0000

Congratulations!

Instead of bringing forward some better and more rational proposals that will help to avoid that hysteria that indeed clouds the environmental issues and could cause the remedies to be worse than the sickness, and help the world to be able to use scarce resources wisely and effective… you live up to your role as an educator, as a beacon of light… and just make fun of it all.

“Return humankind to the dark ages” “Gee what a splendidly witty phrase!” “Got to post it!”

Has it not briefly passed through your head that you are just mirroring the hysteria on the other side? And, if you do not think that we indeed have a very serious environmental problem on our hands and that we need to solve it with lots and lots of rationality and even that might not prove to be enough, well then might I recommend perhaps summer school, Dear Mr. PhD?

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

John Dewey — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 05:38:48 -0000

The hostility towards environmentalists I sense here is probably warranted. But let's not forget that environmentalists have championed important causes over the past four decades.

The quality of air and water in the U.S. is markedly better than 37 years ago. Certainly the environmentally-conscious deserve much credit for this. Not all who are environmentally-counscious are also socialists and hostile to economic growth.

The Nature Conservancy represents the other side of the environmental movement. They have:

"protected more than 117 million acres of land and 5,000 miles of rivers worldwide"

How did they accomplish this?

"We pursue non-confrontational, pragmatic solutions to conservation challenges."

In the U.S., The Nature Conservancy's chief conservation method is land acquisition.

Personally, I'm a skeptic about catastrophic anthropogenic global warming. But I'm not skeptical about the harm humans have done to the planet, such as depositing millions of tons of plastic waste into the oceans, or the continued destruction of tropical rain forests. I do worry about such human-caused harm, while at the same time rejecting the call for halting economic growth.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

fundamentalist — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 05:30:02 -0000

I have often wondered why the Left worships Cuba in spite of its extreme poverty, then it hit me: they worship Cuba BECAUSE of its poverty. As Dr. Boudreaux points out, the N Koreans aren't damaging the environment, in the minds of environmentalists anyway, because they are poor. In the same way, Cubans are too poor to afford cars, large houses, and lots of lighting, so they have a very, very tiny environmental "foot print". Socialists used to want just equality through government ownership. Since their adoption of enviromentalism they want equality and poverty (a return to the Dark Ages) in order to protect the planet. That also explains their infatuation with pre-modern Europe: poverty is good.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

fundamentalist — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 05:29:26 -0000

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

brotio — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:40:40 -0000

I have a feeling that before this thread is exhausted, Vidyohs will have another entry for his list.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Russell Nelson — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:09:10 -0000

I turned extra lights on, to celebrate the increase in prosperity available to us through the use of non-animal energy.

Re: "Earth Hour" and the Dark Ages

Michael Mace — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 18:14:51 -0000

Yes, let us all emulate the monstrous regime of North Korea.