Cafe Hayek - Latest Comments in Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Methinks — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:13:35 -0000

Good point, Perry.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Perry Eidelbus — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:04:21 -0000

"Robert Smith points out that slavery is as old as civilization."

I should have clarified: slavery cannot continue to exist if there's no government. It's true that slavery is as simple as controlling another person's life by the threat and/or use of force. But we're talking about it as an institution.

My point is that if there's no government to sanction slavery, then the slaves can rise up against their masters; it becomes a matter of who is the strongest.

When owners do not have enough force themselves to keep all slaves in line, and when they want others to be compelled to help recover runaway slaves or at least be afraid to help runaways, then a government is needed. Whether it's the antebellum south or ancient Mesopotamia, it's about some sort of a police force to recover runaway slaves, and the same police would use the authority of "the law" to punish those who aided escaped slaves. This takes care of the occasional runaway or small group of runaways. To be effective, a great many slaves would need to rise up simultaneously, like Spartacus' revolt.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Gil — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:58:15 -0000

Thank you Methinks!

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Methinks — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 06:46:37 -0000

Tarran excellently points out that slavery cannot exist without some sort of government entity

Not true. Robert Smith points out that slavery is as old as civilization. Until the 18th century, slavery was an unquestioned human institution. During the 18th century, only the West became squeamish about slavery. The East, particularly the Middle East, continued to see slavery as a perfectly moral and acceptable institution. The West reacted by creating blockades to force the East to end slavery. It didn't work, but it did reduce the slave trade there.

Government did not need to enforce slavery. All one needed was might. He who is strongest both captured and kept slaves enslaved. Most slaves were people from conquered territories and slavery had absolutely nothing to do with racism. If your tribe was the weaker tribe and lost the battle, you were enslaved. Simple as that.

The word "Slave" comes from the word "Slav" as in "Slavic people". The Slavic tribes were nomadic and militarily weak. Thus, they were persistently raided for slave labour - particularly by Islamic Empires. They were enslaved so frequently and became so associated with slavery that they became the brand name. However, throughout history, all ethnic groups were both slave masters and were slaves themselves.

Many Americans seem to think that slavery began and ended with slavery of Africans in North America. Please. Americans didn't invent everything.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

brotio — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:29:07 -0000

Mezzanine,

You're a nice guy.

I've concluded that Mierduck was born without a brain stem and was Sean Gleeson's first attempt to create an artificially-brained human.

This:

http://sean.gleeson.us/2004...

was Gleeson's second, and more intelligent attempt.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Robertsmith853 — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 13:57:22 -0000

Cheers,

Slavery is older than the Greeks. Mosaic law, written somewhere in the 1200-1500 B.C. era - says that the slaves must be given their freedom in the Year of Jubilee. Additionally, they spent approximately 450 years in slavery themselves. Not having read Hammurabai recently, I'm not sure, but it seems to address slaves and issues of the purchase and sale of people as well. This only shows that slavery is an institution as old as civilization. The one time that it seemed to die out, for a particular class of people, was in 1st century B.C. Palestine (Israel). The Jews of Jerusalem were carried back to Rome to be sold as slaves, as had the Greeks from Athens: For their skills and knowledge. For six days a week they were excellent slaves, but come Friday evening, that all changed. No manner of "Persuasion" was successful. Without going into the process in its entirety - I've gone to long already - by the time of Christ's birth there were no Jewish slaves in the Roman empire. This would seem to be the exception that tests the rule.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Mezzanine — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:37:19 -0000

I can only conclude from this thread that muirduck is mentally ill.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

OregonGuy — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 07:20:26 -0000

Markets have more power than governments. Always have had, always will have.

Governments may attempt to control a stream, but markets are leakier than the Mississippi under flooding. And they always find the lowest, weakest spot.

The arguments against ad hoc balancing always seemed to be rather specious. How much planning makes sense? As we find out...empirically...not much. I know that I should be greatful for the recently passed Stimulus Bill, but I wonder, what will the size of the Underground Economy grow to as a result? Does anybody understand the concept of price elasticity, or the elasticity of demand? Will the next step be price controls? How much interference in the markets can be sustained by markets before the markets themselves fail? That is to say, you pick up your marbles and go home?

.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

MWG — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:43:24 -0000

"Yes and slavery and the slave trade was a product of free market capitalism and free trade."

-Muit

And if unfettered free markets were a viable way to organize societies(production) and their economies they would exist as well. They don't exist.

-Muir again

Amazing.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

michaelsmith — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 03:08:59 -0000

Geoih points out:

Muirgeo: "unfettered free markets ....don't exist."

Geoih: And yet you continue to cite them as the major cause of all of our problems.

When a mind voluntarily swallows blatant contradictions -- such as the notion that a system of freedom (capitalism) causes the elimination of some people's freedom (slavery) -- the effect is to render that mind impervious to reason, facts, evidence and logic -- for it is precisely reason, facts, evidence and logic that must be turned off and evaded if the contradiction is to be absorbed. What you are left with then is a mind that is completely untroubled by contradictions, including its own.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

geoih — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:29:17 -0000

Quote from muirgeo: "And if unfettered free markets were a viable way to organize societies(production) and their economies they would exist as well. They don't exist."

And yet you continue to cite them as the major cause of all of our problems.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Randy — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 01:51:56 -0000

Muirgeo,

"And if unfettered free markets were a viable way to organize societies(production) and their economies they would exist as well."

We can't really say that a completely free market system is not viable. There's no evidence one way or the other because the political classes have throughout history exploited the productive classes. This was, by the way, the problem for which Marx imagined his solution.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Lee Kelly — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 22:16:00 -0000

muirgeo,

There is nothing "unfettered" about the free market. Without legal restrictions on the actions of participants, both private and public, there can be no free market. Regulative rules are what coordinate the allocation of resources, i.e. create order, in the marketplace. What governments call "regulation" is, in fact, usually, anti-regulation. Markets are corrupted, price signals are skewed, and long run discrepencies between supply and demand are maintained.

In any case, the 'free market' is an abstraction--an ideal situation which does not actually exist anywhere. Most of the time, however, people are better off when reality more closely corresponds to the ideal. It is impossible to develop a theory which accounts for all relevant variables, and so abstract explanations of principle are the best we can do.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Cheers — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:00:50 -0000

Gil,

My point was not that Greece was a democratic slave state. Rather that slavery is independent of governmental organization, particularly when both representative (American) and direct (Grecian) democracy have demonstrated failings in this capacity. Rather, I was demonstrating that there is perpetually a desire to exploit the lives of others that is more likely to be perpetuated by those given power to rule over others (governments, "citizens", etc)

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Marty S — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 20:13:25 -0000

Muir, You lying Son of Gun. You have no honor. You have no guts. You are a propagandist. Dork, If I look up your campaign contributions, will i find contributions to democrats prior to 1996?

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

muirgeo — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 20:06:02 -0000

Randy,

Right, if gulags were an viable way to organise production, then they would still exist.

Posted by: Lee Kelly

And if unfettered free markets were a viable way to organize societies(production) and their economies they would exist as well. They don't exist.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Gil — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:11:30 -0000

Pretty lame Cheers. Greece was 'democratic' and 'had slavery' = makes good argument for Libertarians to bash Democracy. Any halfwit knows slavery had no obvious starting point and has existed throughout known history.

Then again, if 'slavery' is merely defined when 'someone is forced to work against his/her will and is forbidden to leave and will be tracked down and returned to their place of work should they escape then 'just' forms of slavery include:

1. Prisons

2. Debtor's prisons

3. War reparations whereby the (successful) defenders force the invaders to replace what they destroyed.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Sam Grove — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:51:01 -0000

We must always remember that, in essence, there are no corporations, there are no governments, there are only people and their behaviors.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Sam Grove — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:49:26 -0000

And Walter Williams showed in his book, The State Against Blacks, that racism was the original motivation for minimum wage laws.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Oil Shock — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:42:03 -0000

I watched about 1 hour long segment of "House of Cards". I have zero sympathy towards the "home owners" who refinanced to put pool in their backyard, or took vacation, or upgraded to an unaffordable lifestyle. I have zero sympathies for the enablers on wall street who find themselves in bankruptcy or financial trouble. If the program was created for me to sympathize with the so called "home owners", then it failed, at least in my case.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

The Albatross — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:16:06 -0000

Slavery is a government sponsored institution. Let us not forget our favourite federal Jim Crow Law the Davis-Bacon Act. Old Congressman Bacon saw that the contract for his beloved VA hospital in his district had been given to a coloured contractor from the south. Ergo, he sponsored “prevailing wage” legislation that ensured that work would go to more skilled white labour. While I am at it let us not forget that David Duke ran for senator as a Democrat. And if we are playing the party with more racists in it let us not forget Jeff Davis or better yet Fred Phelps. While we are at it how about George Wallace (segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever—D Alabama). Oh and let me not forget Bill Clinton’s hero Senator Fullbright the author of the Southern Manifesto. I am no Republican, but I do enjoy poking fun at the party (the Democratic Party) with such a history of racism that it can claim the KKK as its militant wing. The market hates racism. It was the market that wanted to integrated the railroads (See Plessy v. Fergason). It was the market that wanted to hire blacks in South Africa (See my grandfather’s diary). The market does not care what colour you are. The market is the most colour blind institution. Only governments discriminate on race. To love government is to love racism—you statist may not love racism yourself (and I do not think that you do) but you are just as complicit. Now if you will excuse me, one of my favourite movies (Blazing Saddles is on AMC).

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

BoscoH — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:04:46 -0000

Both Jim Crow laws and Slavery are things of the past thanks to democracy and no thanks to unregulated market economies.

Another zinger from George. I'll add this to his list of mistakes he won't own unless he surprises me below. Because most agree that the Civil War was largely an economic disagreement between the industrial North and the agrarian South. See:

http://tinyurl.com/top5causes

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Lee Kelly — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:50:51 -0000

Randy,

Right, if gulags were an viable way to organise production, then they would still exist.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

brotio — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:46:03 -0000

Mierduck needs to blame free markets because it is his beloved Democratic Party that defended slavery and wrote the segregation laws. Most of the tenets of modern socialism that Mierduck adores are borne of the belief that minorities are inferior.

Being devout socialists like Mierduck, the dominant leftist press has blindly accepted the Democratic Newspeak, where those who would judge minorities by the content of their character are called racists, and those who judge people by the color of their skin are called the Good Guys.

When Klansman David Duke ran for governor of Louisiana, he was kicked out of the Republican Party. Fellow Klansman Robert Byrd was not only welcomed by the Democrats, he was named their Senate Majority Leader.

Re: Jim Crow Was a Product of Government

Cheers — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:13:51 -0000

Gil,

You make a good point. As muirgeo deftly avoided mentioning, one of the first occurrences of slavery was democratic greece. Slavery was allowed because only citizens (property-owning males) were allowed to vote. The question is not one of "government" or "democracy" or "capitalism". The issue is that there are people who would enforce their individual will on others in a way that interferes with their freedoms. Sometimes they are "citizens" sometime they are governments. At this particular point in time, the exercised power of government is at an unprecedented level, and there is currently quite a few that seem intent on extending this beyond what many consider acceptable, and hope to do so through a system that doesn't allow individuals the opportunity to vote for or against these decisions, or the opportunity to opt out of a system in which forced labor, extreme taxation or other fates are decided.

And before the inevitable "just move out of the country" argument is brought to bear, I will humbly ask whether North American slavery would be acceptable or reasonable had there been a vote in which the majority of people agreed on the subjugation of an entire race.