Cafe Hayek - Latest Comments in How we feel about our taxes

Re: How we feel about our taxes

vidyohs — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:04:22 -0000

Gil July 29, 2009 at 9:07 am

Pfff. I believe Irwin Schiff went to jail using much the same arguments to believe he could legally not pay taxes, vidyohs.

No, Gil. Irwin Schiff and I have nothing in common in our beliefs.

You probably know really very little about Irwin Schiff, and you've absorbed very little of what I have stated as my position, therefore you can make no valid comparisons nor any of wisdom on the income tax issue.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

yetanotherDave — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Cole - good point. I suspect that the remaining 13% pay the lowest income tax rate.

Of course, I think any federal income tax is too high. Allowing the taxing of income means the government has to know everything about every dollar that everybody earns. It's an invitation for an unacceptable level of intrusion into our lives. (I'm not sure that's an unintended consequence)

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Daniel Kuehn — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

RE: "I challenge you to find a single regular commenter on this blog who is opposed to such a voluntary relationship. "

I don't accept the challenge because I agree with you on that.

But coercion of some sort was on the table well before Marx - his contribution was the scale of the application of the dictum, AND the purpose of the redistribution. I don't agree with him on scale or purpose, and I have common cause with many other pre-Marxists who agreed with the general principle of coercion, so I really don't see why my views are especially Marxist.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Methinks — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

BTW, Marx gave "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" a bad name because he advocated the use of coercion.

Judging by your earlier statement on the subject, the difference that neither you nor Marx see is that families and other communities adhere to this dictum voluntarily. Marx and other socialists favour the use of coercive force and the imposition of a single end to thrust unwilling strangers into this less than cozy relationship.

I challenge you to find a single regular commenter on this blog who is opposed to such a voluntary relationship.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Daniel Kuehn — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

*no one who knows

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Daniel Kuehn — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Eric -

RE: "In other words, he admits that he has no way of knowing the exact nature of the utility curve for any given person other than it's rough shape, but he firmly believes that there is a person out there who does."

Perhaps that was unclear. Let me state clearly - not only is there know one that knows what peoples' utility curve looks like, but it is impossible for anyone to ever know that.

RE: "It never occures to Daniel, or really any statist, that their politicians are much like them, with all the same foibles and limited capacity for knowledge."

No, I make this same point quite often.

All I've suggested is that a progressive tax structure of some sort is ethically ideal. Are you challenging the only assumption that I made - that there is a diminishing marginal utility to money? I haven't heard anyone suggest otherwise - but perhaps you'd like to. Either way, that's the only assumption that I claim. And the only conclusion that I claim is that a progressive structure of some sort is best. Of course nobody knows what that structure should be or what individual preferences look like. The only mechanism we have for accurately revealing individual preferences is the market. So in terms of revenue collection, we're up a creek - we have nothing to resort to and we should not expect a perfect or even an optimal solution.

But I think we can make a conclusive argument for a progressive tax structure in general.

This isn't really a leftist argument, you realize. It has nothing to do with radical politics or leftist perspectives on society.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Fred Foldvary — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

People think the income tax they pay is about right because they are presented with a tray that says "food" and a button that says "taxes to pay for food," so they push the button to get the food. They don't know that there is a hidden button that will give them the food without taxes. If they knew, they would no longer push the tax button.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Eric Hammer — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Personally, I love Daniel's argument here, not because it is correct but because it clearly outlines the left's love of authorities.

Daniel states that he thinks that everyone has a utility curve for money that starts high and ends low.

He then states that he does not know where that curve lies for everyperson, but he thinks that it can be reflected in tax policy.

In other words, he admits that he has no way of knowing the exact nature of the utility curve for any given person other than it's rough shape, but he firmly believes that there is a person out there who does. He further believes that he and the other 300 million voters out there can decide which person out of the 300 million can make that decision and vote that fellow or filly into office.

It never occures to Daniel, or really any statist, that their politicians are much like them, with all the same foibles and limited capacity for knowledge, and thus are no better able to dictate just the right progressive tax rates or balance of health care for 300 million than the guy who delivers mail in your office.

Most people reach a point in their lives when they realize that their parents do not have all the answers, and are just as fallible as they are, just with some more experience. For some reason or another, however, relatively few people ever come to this realization about political leaders.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Methinks — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

If socialism were right, practical, or moral I suppose I wouldn't have a problem with it.

You don't. You have a problem reconciling your socialist beliefs with socialism's failures.

What is an "optimal" utility curve? That makes no sense. A utility curve isn't optimal or non-optimal. It just is what it is. And who said we all have one curve?

"Optimal utility curve” is sarcasm. I would have thought a card-carrying economist who just implied that he knows where to start confiscating more income through taxation would have gotten that. I will explain what I mean in my dumbed-down non-economist way.

If I put forth the time, effort and risk to make $3MM per year, what right have you to assume that my marginal utility begins to decline at any level below $3MM and that it’s fine to assume that my marginal utility begins to decline at $100K, making it okay to progressively tax away anything above that income level?

I assure you that I know exactly where my marginal utility begins to decline and I will adjust my work/leisure ratio to reflect that without the help of the “we” you’re so fond of. I can also assure you that every other human being knows what their utility curve looks like with respect to income and will adjust without the help of social engineer wannabes. Even muirpid.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Gil — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Pfff. I believe Irwin Schiff went to jail using much the same arguments to believe he could legally not pay taxes, vidyohs. You're probably better just stating taxes are theft than accidently send Libertarians to jail on false advice.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

vidyohs — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Chuck,

Secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau, a crony of FDR.

While the idea of withholding had been known before (going back to the Civil war), but not done because of the, inability of government to come up with the mechanism, Morgenthau was the man who brought it to the table and the force that pushed until the present system was created.

Milton Freidman was but a minor official in the treasury department at the time and may have had input into devising the mechanism, but was certainly not the man who brought it to the USA.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

vidyohs — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Chuck,

I am deep into the income tax fraud, and I don't believe you're correct about that. I am certain it was someone in FDR's inner circle that came up with the idea.

I will go back to my sources and look it up again and put a name to him, as I know I have seen it and Milton Freidman is not the guy.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Daniel Kuehn — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Methinks -

Re: "Be very careful, John Dewey. Such misunderstanding of Danny's position may result in a good old fashioned shunning. "

Not at all - he didn't call my ideas bullshit like you did. I would clarify, Crusader, I don't think Germany or Sweden provide examples worthy of emulation. I have some admiration for Denmark's unemployment insurance system, but I'm not even sure what value that would have here - it seems better suited to transition a European-style labor market to an American-style labor market, rather than as something to operate in an American-style system.

"See, somebody (with no agenda, obviously) decided we all have one optimal utility curve."

What is an "optimal" utility curve? That makes no sense. A utility curve isn't optimal or non-optimal. It just is what it is. And who said we all have one curve? I'm not quite sure what you're talking about or who you're refering to.

"Thus, since he has determined the money has negative value to you above that point"

Sacrebleu! Does global non-satiation mean NOTHING to you?!?!?!?!

RE: "The important thing is that Danny is pretty sure that this is maybe his position but he doesn't really want to commit just in case he's misunderstood to be a socialist."

No - just in case it's wrong. The fact that I'm not really a socialist is coincidence. If socialism were right, practical, or moral I suppose I wouldn't have a problem with it.

So Methinks - maybe I missed it. Spell out to me exactly why it's unethical to equalize the marginal disutility of taxation in a tax code.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Mesa Econoguy — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

It's all win/win and ponies.

Posted by: Methinks

Just awesome.

These people also think you can cure cancer thru interpretive dance.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Crusader — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Methinks - the real debate we should be having as a society is what % of wealth belongs to the public based on how public expenditures of infrastructure facilitated wealth creation. Surely you don't think that every rich person got that way by sheer gumption? Heck, even I went to a subsidized public university. I think the fairer solution would be less spending on parasitical welfare programs and more on public infrastructure(power plants, repairing bridges,etc...). Things that benefit all men and women.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Methinks — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Moral? Why, crusader....how could it possibly be considered so immoral to relieve people of money you've (sorry "we") determined provides such scary bad disutlity? Why, taking it is a downright public service. The high earner wins and your social welfare thingie wins. It's all win/win and ponies.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Crusader — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Methinks - Daniel might subscribe less to the moral position of socialism then what he perceives to be practical successes. After all, aren't Sweden, Denmark and Germany doing just fine with 60% socialist systems?*

* I know they're NOT doing just fine, and the USA has subsidized their national defense for 60 years. Just putting the standard leftist argument out there.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Methinks — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Be very careful, John Dewey. Such misunderstanding of Danny's position may result in a good old fashioned shunning.

Did Danny say he had a socialist agenda? No. He only said that the rich perhaps need progressive taxes (because that's totally different from a surtax on high earners). See, somebody (with no agenda, obviously) decided we all have one optimal utility curve. Thus, since he has determined the money has negative value to you above that point, it only makes sense that Obama and Nancy Pelosi take it from you.

Sure, you could just start a charity with it or give it to a charity that you want to support and that might have some utility to you, but where's the government waste in that?

The important thing is that Danny is pretty sure that this is maybe his position but he doesn't really want to commit just in case he's misunderstood to be a socialist.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

John Dewey — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Daniel Kuehn: "It's not socialist. "We" are talking about a surtax on the rich."

Certainly sounds similar to the preaching of the most famous of all socialists:

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

Daniel Kuehn: "100% behind making the tax structure at least marginally more progressive at some time in the near future"

For what purpose? to further your socialist agenda? because you enjoy thievery? because you envy those whose efforts are economically more valuable than yours?

Daniel Kuehn: "I suppose I'd be OK raising taxes for someone making $350K a year"

That's certainly not surprising. And when such taxes are insufficient to fund your socialist agenda, what then? raising taxes for someone making $250K? establishing geographic cost of living adjustments so that you can tax the Arkansas equivalent of a New York $350K income?

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Veritas — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

If I was a billionaire, I would be re-domiciling right about now.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

vidyohs — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

To understand the issue of attitudes towards the income taxes, which is the only thing rational to discuss when we are addressing individual attitudes because the excises taxes slip under most people's awareness, one only has to go back and look at how many so-called taxpayers were not volunteering a 1040 every year before the FDR sidekick invented "withholding" during WWII.

When people know it is voluntary and they have all their fruits of labor in their own pocket, they aren't too damn eager to send any in to government, and those data prove it, "withholding" would never have been considered necessary if there had even been decent participation by the public.

Even those mental midgets that say they think taxes are justified and that "they" would send in their voluntary tax form every year regardless......they are lying. it would take them no more than a year to either reduce their contribution or cease it altogether.

Taxes, in no other single subject do I see greater crippled thinking, so much so that I cringe at labeling as thought what I know be no more than enculturated drivel.

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Mesa Econoguy — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

The slippery slope argument is so cliché, but it’s right here.

Who determines what’s immoral?

This wacky bitch ?

I don’t think so.

The minute you start throwing around subjective terminology in relation to confiscating another’s wealth, earned or not, you start down the slide to serfdom. Or was it a road….?

Anyway, were there shenanigans (Shenanigans, I tells ya!) on Wall Street? Absolutely. That’s part of the deal – in order to ensure a free-functioning, incentivized and productive society, you need to tolerate a certain amount of malfeasance and (perceived) misdeeds. The normal checks-and-balances take care of the rest (incentives).

You think that Barney Frank knows what should be done with financial regulation? He knows nothing, yet we entrust him with that very task. You think that Nancy freaking Pelosi knows anything at all?

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Niles — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Crusader, Why should power plants be viewed as public (taxpayer-financed) infrastructure?

Re: How we feel about our taxes

True_Liberal — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Have you ever considered the curious fact that tax day and election day are six months apart? I would like to see them much closer together - the same week, or even the same day!

Re: How we feel about our taxes

Chuck — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:00:00 -0000

Taxes are extortion.