Cafe Hayek - Latest Comments in Do Something??

Re: Do Something??

The Dirty Mac — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:17:36 -0000

Lots of good work here. I can't post in depthn but I would suggest that the stock returns 1871-1946 vs the current period might be a very different comparison if expressed in real terms. IIRC, the overall price level was relatively stable until about 1946.

Re: Do Something??

The Dirty Mac — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:17:19 -0000

Re: Do Something??

Gil — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:50:16 -0000

No business cycle? Well at mises.org for one . . .

Re: Do Something??

Billy — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:45:52 -0000

I'm telling you that they aren't authorized by the federal government. The Constitution doesn't deny the federal government the ability to wield its constitutionally granted powers on state-created entities.

Re: Do Something??

vidyohs — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:24:22 -0000

muirgeo,

You're a sad excuse for a debate opponent when you fall back onto the standard socialist tactic of attempting denigration, ridicule, and stirring of fraudulent feelings instead of addressing the points and issues.

Case in point:

"Said the guy who joined the Navy (thank you) and got a complete cradle to grave socialized smorgassboard of taxpayer paid benifits that will continue till the day he passes.

Said the guy who wrote this on the government spawned internet.

Yes, vidyohs....you're Randian independent self made man for sure."

It is as my brother said, "There is no such thing as a socialist thinker or intellectual."

My answer to your question, for the third time, was succinctly, "no self sufficiency, no vote and no input to public policy", that is how I see a society functioning without thumbsucking socialists voting on how public money is spent.

And your reply to the wisdom and practicality of that is..........?

Re: Do Something??

muirgeo — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:03:33 -0000

Corporate charters are unconstitutional? Huh? Muirgeo, corporations are formed pursuant to state law. The U.S. Constitution does not prohibit states from exercising such power.

Posted by: Billy

You trying to tell me corporations aren't recognized at the federal level with regard to taxes and liabilities?

Re: Do Something??

Python — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 15:26:06 -0000

Hey Gil,

Which libertarian economists are you speaking of when you say the following: "'Tis interesting to hear the arguments from some Libertarians that if the economy was really laissez-faire then there'd be no such thing as a business cycle."?

Please be specific.

Re: Do Something??

Sam Grove — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:29:29 -0000

As long as the playing field for income is tilted towards the rich, powerful and connected a progressive tax is a poor but reasonable alternative to give back to the working people what the powwerful steal from them.

Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out that way. I think it was Walter Williams who revealed in his "The State Against Blacks" that more money is taken from poor communities via taxes than they receive from the government in benefits. Warmaking and international military bases are very expensive, ya know.

Re: Do Something??

Eric — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:12:54 -0000

OregonGuy,

Yes, you are correct; the TVA (as it happened) happened because of centralized planning and taxpayer money. But remember: every dollar spent on it was one less dollar spent freely by individuals elsewhere in the economy.

I admit that government can achieve these kinds of ends. The problem is, they were achieved through coercion rather than through persuasion (market mechanisms). Eventually, those serviced by the TVA would have had power provided by a private company, guaranteed. It may not have happened as the bureaucrats and planners wanted it to happen, but it would have happened.

Amity Shlaes recent book The Forgotten Man includes a great discussion of the TVA and how the federal government basically strove to drive private suppliers of power in the South out of business.

Re: Do Something??

OregonGuy — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:04:55 -0000

I agree with your view that markets are best left to sort themselves out. And Murray Wolfson, in his "A Reappraisal of Marxian Economics" (Columbia University Press, 1966) talks eloquently about the effects of central planning on capital formation.

But it has to be admitted, doesn't it, that the TVA exists solely because of the kind of central planning that was put into place...along with its concommitent increase in public financing?

Just a thought.

Re: Do Something??

vidyohs — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:52:37 -0000

Government is nothing more than a legal fiction, an agreement amongst people.

The market place as spoken of by most people is also a fiction.

The reason central planning by governments, of course, fails so miserably is for that reason. Their regulations and interference can not possibly take into account all the sudden, spontaneous, and totally unpredictable directions an indidividual's, or a group of people's, wants, needs, and desires may go.

What each of us has to remember is that each individual is a market, and a marketplace is created by two people meeting and exchanging goods or services, i.e. where the market meets and is conducted becomes a marketplace. I am a market looking to buy, and you are a market looking to sell. A market is a singular thing not a plural thing.

When in the distant past many individuals had wants and needs it developed that everyone was better and more efficiently served if a known meeting place was established for markets to meet. That known meeting place where markets met became known as "the marketplace".

No central planning can ever deal with, in the USA, some 300 million markets all looking for a place to conduct business to meet their individual desires, wants, and needs by matching exact goods, services, and prices to satisfy each. Extrapolate that out to over six billion markets worldwide and you have compounded the impossibility to.....what? I couldn't measure or quantify that problem.

When folks talk about economics and economies and forget that basic they get lost and say and do strange things.

One of the important things I have learned is that the market is more important to an honest self sufficient individual than government is. People can and have lived effectively with no or very little government, but one market absolutely needs another market in order to survive, thrive, and have any measure of security and comfort.

This little bit of input comes from nothing more than plain common sense and observation of what is happening in the world around me.

Re: Do Something??

vidyohs — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:20:45 -0000

Sam Grove,

"If I may paraphrase:

Government is what it is, not in spite of who we are, but because of it."

You certainly may paraphrase, and I can certainly support that side of the same coin as well.

Re: Do Something??

Billy — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:03:59 -0000

Corporate charters are unconstitutional? Huh? Muirgeo, corporations are formed pursuant to state law. The U.S. Constitution does not prohibit states from exercising such power.

Re: Do Something??

muirgeo — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:49:46 -0000

But when the majority can steal from a minority (progressive taxation), the government is no longer doing its original job (secure the life, liberty, and property of its citizens).

Posted by: Eric

See I don't see it that way. I see a minority stealing from the majority. (Corporate charters and bribery of public officials...both not constitutional based on the same assumptins you make about progressive taxation).

Straight forward YES/NO question. Would you agree to get rid of all corporate charters if we got rid of progressive taxation AND every possible tax write off?

My answer is NO WAY! Wouldn't do it. Mostly because I wouldn't want to get rid of corporate charters....not so much of concern with the tax issues.

However, I never considered Robinhood a crook. As long as the playing field for income is tilted towards the rich, powerful and connected a progressive tax is a poor but reasonable alternative to give back to the working people what the powwerful steal from them.

Re: Do Something??

muirgeo — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:41:56 -0000

This springs from your premise that society must be ruled by a hierarchical political administration.

Posted by: Sam Grove

Sam,

A constitutional democracy is the best attempt to avoid top down governing. It's the best attempt to diffuse the power of politicians. I just believe it does neeed an informed citizenry and the process needs to truly represent the will of the people not of payors and their bought politicians.

Re: Do Something??

Sam Grove — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:40:32 -0000

Said the guy who wrote this on the government spawned internet.

Always the assumption that just because something occurred under soem auspice of government that it would never have occurred otherwise.

Re: Do Something??

muirgeo — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:37:23 -0000

"We are what we are, and who we are, not because of government but in spite of it."

Posted by: vidyohs

Said the guy who joined the Navy (thank you) and got a complete cradle to grave socialized smorgassboard of taxpayer paid benifits that will continue till the day he passes.

Said the guy who wrote this on the government spawned internet.

Yes, vidyohs....you're Randian independent self made man for sure.

Re: Do Something??

Sam Grove — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:22:22 -0000

"We are what we are, and who we are, not because of government but in spite of it."

If I may paraphrase:

Government is what it is, not in spite of who we are, but because of it.

Muirgeo:

Once, when I ran for congress, a newspaper reporter asked me if the government should subsidize oil or coal. Of course, I said "neither", but I bring it up because you hold that we must live with a similar meager offer; Democracy or tyranny.

This springs from your premise that society must be ruled by a hierarchical political administration.

I'm not going to bother trying to describe an alternative to hierarchical rule for you as you are always poised to dismiss even the possiblity of such, but I will suggest that the reason people need a political hierarchy is because that is what they, by and large, believe.

Re: Do Something??

Eric — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:18:13 -0000

"And as usually for the 50th time tell me what you want to replace this democracy with and how do we do that?...with a vote?...or by force?"

Muirgeo, I think that I am speaking for many libertarians/classical liberals when I say this:

We would like to see a return to the government provided for us by our constitution. Limited national government, no income tax, and "rights" meant things that the government COULD NOT take away, not things that one could demand of others.

Voting eligibility issues aside, the original form of our country was that of a republic, not a democracy. Arguably, we've shifted more to the latter as the federal government has dramatically exceeded its original role.

Impractical as it may be, most of us here would like to see the federal government get out of our daily lives and the economy as a whole, as it once did.

Democratic institutions -- strictly checked by a constitution -- are fine. But when the majority can steal from a minority (progressive taxation), the government is no longer doing its original job (secure the life, liberty, and property of its citizens).

Re: Do Something??

vidyohs — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:16:28 -0000

muirgeo,

You ask: "And as usually(sic) for the 50th time tell me what you want to replace this democracy with and how do we do that?...with a vote?...or by force?

I gave you the answer on another thread and asked you to answer it there, you chose to dodge it. So I ask it again.

muirgeo,

Speaking of addressing ideas, thanks for your focus on my attitude towards how to deal with thumbsuckers; but I'd really like to hear you dispute the wisdom in these two paragraphs.

"muirgeo, my own personal opinion is that anyone who receives as charity (public or private) any portion, no matter how small or from what source, of what it takes to provide for his/her existence should never be allowed in a voting booth or to speak or write about public policy. Iron-clad censorship of thumbsuckers vis-a-vis public policy.

A person such as described in the last paragraph was never intended to have the vote and should never be allowed to decide on how any public money is spent. Wise men through history recognized that and our founding fathers certainly did."

In view of your quoted question I think my proposal deserves a serious answer.

And this? "One of the big things that bothers me is how republicans hate democracy but lie to the people just to get their votes. They know they can only win if the vote is suppressed."

My God you must think we are all brain dead out here in freedom land!

The King of Guadalupe County asked Lyndon in his run for Senator, "How many votes do you need?", and then delivered enough by voting the graveyards, the incarcerated, and anyone else not registered and actually on the roles as having voted....and I am not sure that the last was not also violated.

Democrats descend upon old folks homes, assisted voting......er..living centers, and altzheimer homes and see to it that the feeble and disfunctional vote democrat on their absentee ballot.

Here in Harris the newly elected republicrap absolutely caused hysteria in the democrappic community by purging dead people, incarcerated people, and noncitizens from the county voting registar. From the venomous outpouring of hatred by the democraps one would have thought he was a baby raper.

Your version of what is happening in the political scene vis-a-vis vote scamming is highly comical to those of us who see the real thing played out on the ground each year.

Re: Do Something??

Tom Kelly — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:00:29 -0000

Henri:

What's important is not the measures, it is the standard of living. Speak to those who lived through the era and you will find that, for most people, their standard of living did not exceed what it was in the 1920s until well after the war was over.

The standard of living during the war was even lower that it was just prior. The economic numbers went up, but goods were being produced for destruction rather than consumption. Many goods were rationed or unavailable. Don't fall for the foolish notion that wars are good for economies.

The economy grew post war because governments largely got out of the way (several by force) and allowed people the freedom to rebuild. The economic and political momentum of this relatively free rebuilding carried the world economy well past where it started prior to the war.

Freedom is prosperity, both intrinsically and extrinsically.

Re: Do Something??

vidyohs — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 11:58:52 -0000

Sam Grove,

I agree with you, your last most specifically. Succinctly it can be said,

"We are what we are, and who we are, not because of government but in spite of it."

Re: Do Something??

Python — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 11:42:17 -0000

Spencer,

In the late 1800s the average lifespan of people on the planet was about 30 years. Now it is about 60 or so.

The Olympic games were "re-started" in 1896.

It is clear from my analysis that the Olympic games caused the life expectancy to rise.

------

There is a strong correlation between when my car is wet and when it rains. I believe that the wetness of my car causes the rain in my neighborhood, but the guy down the street thinks its his lawn that is doing it.

Re: Do Something??

John — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 11:40:55 -0000

Muirgeo,

reading this last comment, I reminded of what vidyohs said way upthread to you:

You demonstrate both in your ability to give answers to questions that haven’t been asked, as well as your ability to mis-state issues and facts in the casual way

This is exactly what you just did in your latest comment above.

Re: Do Something??

muirgeo — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 11:28:28 -0000

Democracy is no guarantee of anything and usually is no more than the illusion that citizens have any control over the administration of political policies.

Posted by: Sam Grove

Democracy is not perfect but it is the best thing going. And I do indeed feel the answer is more democracy not less.

And as usually for the 50th time tell me what you want to replace this democracy with and how do we do that?...with a vote?...or by force?

One of the big things that bothers me is how republicans hate democracy but lie to the people just to get their votes. They know they can only win if the vote is suppressed.