Cafe Hayek - Latest Comments in Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

muirgeo — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:44:48 -0000

" The great multinationals are unwilling to face the moral and economic contradictions of their own behavior - producing in low-wage dictatorships and selling to high-wage democracies. Indeed, the striking quality about global enterprises is how easily free-market capitalism puts aside its supposed values in order to do business. The conditions of human freedom do not matter to them so long as the market demand is robust. The absence of freedom, if anything, lends order and efficiency to their operations."

William Greider

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

vikingvista — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:00:56 -0000

"tax collection in and of itself is not inherently inconsistent with a free society"

Neither I suppose is murder, rape, arson, larceny, slander, war, or slavery, since those things too have existed in a free society.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

The Albatross — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:28:09 -0000

“What you call thuggery another may call buggery.”

Posted by TrUmptit.

True, what is called thuggery really is buggery. When those child-labour unfortunates can no longer find employment in “sweatshops” (thanks to western do-gooders), then they have few other opportunities to make an honest living. As a result they are confided to sex tourism, they understand this vile system and it is the only means they can support their families for lack of a higher-paying sweat shop. Unfortunately, the excuses will be made, but the “sweat shop” has proven itself as key to a better life. The “sweat shop” is integral to building a prosperous society. We had them in England, Scotland, and America; and they built our way to middle class living. As for the doubters, I am always amazed at those who find poverty and child buggery quaint.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

Ray G — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:59:17 -0000

He's from Ohio so the polls that drive his motives will always be protectionist.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

Sam Grove — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:42:26 -0000

The Black Death was caused by free trading with Asia.

The black Death was caused by disease carried by fleas spread by rats with much blame lying with the general ignorance of the population many of which thought that cats were to blame, and so many natural enemies of the rats were killed.

To say it was caused by "free trade" with Asia ignores the interest that empires and states had in trade with Asia.

Rats were as likely to be carried by military ships of the day as by trade ships.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

Sam Grove — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:37:02 -0000

When governments negotiate for their citizenry, can it make sense (in a free market way) for the collective to withhold market access as means to bargain for more open markets, i.e. the tit-for-tat concession strategy. Individuals bargain like this all the time. Why does it become different when people bargain collectively?

When an individual engages in bargaining, he is doing it with his own resources and knows when the value he desires is available at a price he is willing to pay.

People don't bargain collectively, rather, a collective agency represented by authorized individuals engages in the actual bargaining. Both parties in such a case will only come to agreement when both are satisfied that they will be better off as a result of the bargaining agreement.

If all the people being represented in this process are knowing and willing participants in the arrangement, and hae specified their desired outcome which is in harmony with the desires of their follows, then they may all be satisfied.

When arbitrary authority, as in the state, engages in such bargaining, the incentives are much different.

The authority can only purport to be representing the interests of the people. As it likely has not secured the explicit agreements of the represented individuals in any particular bargaining arrangement, then the agency will bargain on the basis of its own interest and is often subject to influence by those with resources and the greatest interest in the outcome of the bargaining.

Thus the outcome of political bargaining is likely to produce winners and losers among those who are supposedly being represented. Most often it is the case that more of those individuals will end up as losers to the greater benefit of the winners whose concentrated gains outweigh the diffuse costs borne by the losers.

And the losers have to just live with it!

And quite often, if it does worked as desired, the winners have to live with it too.

BTW, many here think that many things should not be put to a vote.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

Gil — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:50:11 -0000

Gee, talking of border patrols - what of those who police goods for the introduction of disease and pests? The Black Death was caused by free trading with Asia.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

Gil — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:46:19 -0000

Then again:

Capitalism - one wolf creates market value by converting the chook into chicken pieces and selling it to the other wolf.

Libertarianism - the wolves eat the chook as it is the natural order.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

DAVE — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:00:29 -0000

I guess "we" as expressed through government.

Once "we" do anything it is granted instant legitimacy. It's how most Germans went along with democratically elected Adolf Hitler.

Does this make me an anarchist?

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

geoih — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:33:57 -0000

Quote from Daniel Kuehn: "What I mean by that is, we have to raise revenue. How we raise revenue is a function of the implications of taxing income vs. imports."

Who is "we"? That's the problem with income tax.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

vidyohs — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:28:13 -0000

this

Posted by: Daniel Kuehn | Mar 25, 2009 12:45:33 PM

should leave no doubt the Daniel is a socialist troll.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

vidyohs — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:26:37 -0000

CRC,

As I was reading down the comments I came across the one from Methinks and intended to post in reply, but I hit yours:

Methinks, I think you got this partly right: "It seems that Americans put all their faith in government until it fails them and then free market reform begins again."

From my observation it is more like:

It seems that Americans put all their faith in government until a failure happens and then they blame the free market and ask for reform in the form of more government action.

More succinctly, people often don't KNOW the cause of a failure but ASSUME it's free-market capitalism.

Posted by: CRC | Mar 25, 2009 1:02:13 PM

and saw there was no reason to, you had said exactly what I had intended.

Thank you.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

Crusader — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:51:38 -0000

DAVE - it's conventional wisdom in America that libertarianism = anarchism. How do we fight that all-pervasive perception? I have no friggen clue!

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

DAVE — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:42:39 -0000

Reading Jeff and Daniel who are obviously intelligent people, one cannot feel more hopeless as to the direction we are all heading.

Statism is so strong and government is so trusted and left unquestioned to right all perceived wrongs that even supposed free marketeers advocate completely unnecessary government control for no real reason other than that is how their mind is set once again proving that if you tell the same lie over and over again it will somehow become the "truth".

Sorry guys.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

DAVE — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:32:07 -0000

Jeff,

A. Just because something may better for you, is in no way a license for government to force you to behave in a certain way, otherwise It would be perfectly legitimate for government to tell me to eat my vegetables and lay off excess beer and steak (wer'e getting there, I know).

B. If Cuba or Soviet Russia executes one of their own for importing "contraband American goods that harm the general welfare", do we do the same when someone brings in Russian goods?

In the real world two wrongs don't make a right. They make two wrongs. Maybe you're in accounting. I don't know.

Also, if you're worried about long term, I can assure you first hand that plenty damage is being done right now to businesses in the form of duty, customs brokerage and time - and we still can't export for free!

Freedom cannot be forced. Look no further than Cuba and pray tell me who benefits from us not doing business with them. Cubans are still oppressed as ever - free dental and all - and us and probably the Cubans are all the poorer for it.

Now to address both your questions together: If we wanted to bargain collectively we would bargain collectively, in the form of not doing business with certain countries. As for "showing them", that would do the trick.

If we are not bargaining collectively, that is a clear indicator that we don't wish to and are happier doing business this way. The fact that government has to force it and that without government intervention it wouldn't be, is a clear indicator that liberty is being violated.

One more thing: I did not advocate anarchy. Please read the post.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

Crusader — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:28:28 -0000

Daniel - Jim Crow laws were the result of "democracy", so there goes your notion that we all must abide by it.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

Methinks — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:16:45 -0000

Daniel,

The "they believe it's a small price to pay for the "protection of American workers"." concern isn't entirely invalid.

It is pretty invalid. At best, it's hypocrisy. If people truly felt strongly about "saving american jobs", they would have paid more for the poorer product without having the government force it on them. It's obvious that people don't really care about American jobs until the government imposes tariffs which the average American doesn't understand and can do nothing about.

More jobs are lost than are gained as a result of protectionism. Where's the concern for that?

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

DAVE — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:41:35 -0000

Daniel,

Forget the tit for tat part for a sec.

Main point was that tariffs differ greatly from taxes and are a form of punishment for not buying the very same item from the vendor the government would have preferred.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

Daniel Kuehn — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:30:31 -0000

DAVE -

I lost the train of thought on this one and probably won't try to pick this up - but I hope you don't think I was advocating tit-for-tat. I was just observing that the tit-for-tat of protectionism is probably why governments resort to income taxes.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

CRC — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:05:04 -0000

John, I agree that tariffs can be OK with the following two conditions:

- keep them as low as possible to fund the BASIC needs of government

- make them the same for all products...no special favors for X or Y industry

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

DAVE — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:01:50 -0000

Then John, there should be a fee for every man woman and child and everything else that crosses the border. Border patrol is paid for by the general revenue from taxes.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

John — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:47:33 -0000

There's nothing wrong with tariffs, they're the government charging a fee for goods crossing a border that the government is tasked to protect.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

John — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:41:02 -0000

CRC - exactly.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

DAVE — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:39:29 -0000

OK Daniel here goes:

Taxes are a necessary and natural part of any society without which would descend into anarchy. Consider it a user fee of sorts.

The above is taxing PROFITS.

There is nothing inherently illegal about buying and selling. As a matter of fact buying and selling happens every minute of the day and while the PROFITS of the transaction are taxed, the TRANSACTION itself is tax free.

Taxing a specific action is in direct conflict with liberty, a punishment for acquiring property from one source as opposed to the source government would prefer.

As far as "tit for tat", just because they're punishing their own citizenry, that's no excuse to punish your own citizenry and using them as pawns. Of course if a private citizen chooses not to buy overseas, that is his prerogative. Forcing people to play the governments game is violating their liberty.

Re: Behind the Marble Facade, It’s Thuggery

John — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:38:40 -0000

DK,

I'm aware that Keynes is wrong, but I wasn't aware he was hated.

As far as I'm concerned the only people who believe Keynes are politicians who use his work as an excuse to expand their power, people who don't know any better because that's all they were taught, and the haters of talk radio who believe he must be right because Rush says he's wrong.